This is what true enshittification of Windows 11 is, unless you pirate the enterprise version.
This really shows that we need more competition. Linux is not seen as an alternative given the lack of commercial software support (e.g. lack of Adobe apps, which is used in the creative industry, etc, along with apps that only work on Windows and/or Mac).
This is why I use a Mac instead of Windows, because I don't like Windows, but I have a laptop that runs Windows to run a few apps that are Windows only. But only having two viable choices isn’t that great, likewise with iOS and Android.
If only BeOS, OS/2, etc. was still a thing, maybe it wouldn't be this bad.
Also, Windows 7 was the last “good" Windows OS until it basically turned to crap.
https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/21/24063379/windows-11-ads-bing-edge-cruft
@chikorita157
- Java was supposed to save us as the multiplatform tech
- Then people started abusing multiplatform engines like Unity
- Now we're at browser-as-a-platform with Electron at the forefront
@anianimalsmoe You know how I feel about Electron. It's garbage as it eats up memory just for a relatively simple app, and basically just a web browser.
QT is also a cross platform framework that allows people to create apps for multiple platforms, but of course that mostly relies on C++.There are bindings that allow you to develop using different languages.
Of course web apps has make it easier to switch to other operating systems. However, specialized apps like photo and video editors like Photoshop, which of course has a lot of legacy code, thus people are stuck with using either Windows or Mac.
@chikorita157
Oh yeah, I forgot about QT. Used it only once
VSCode runs on Electron, so we're all pretty much doomed.
@chikorita157
Sorry for the random rant. But yeah, if everything is multiplatform, hopefully a proper Linux distro will rise up.
But I agree that specialized apps will be the main problem.
@anianimalsmoe @chikorita157 hopefully the distro that will rise up is <insert phrase that will trigger distro war>
@anianimalsmoe @chikorita157 Multiplatform leads to lowest common denominator which leads to an eventual mono platform.
:(
I’m still kinda slow burn looking for a Linux distro for me. They are all failing me:(
(And it’s not that I have crazy demands, just that no distro seems to have them.)
@yon@sakurajima.moe @anianimalsmoe@sakurajima.moe @chikorita157@sakurajima.moe sorry for barging in, and i'm not guaranteeing that i'd help but just out of pure curiosity - what demands do u have that aren't being met (by Linux) if u don't mind me asking?
@irfan @anianimalsmoe @chikorita157
Not far behind (good bye Debian, Ubuntu, etc)
Not bleeding edge
KDE, but not a bunch of customizations
Not a tiny community (want to be able to look things up)
Large software library (I keep getting irritated with Kubuntu not having a lot of stuff that for example homebrew does)
Chill community, no fighting etc
No stupid commercial connections ruining things
No silly package systems (snap etc) that are just bad. Not against it conceptually, just never like the options on Linux.
Stuff like that. Every time someone wants to suggest a distro when I bring this up, and I can’t get mad at people wanting to help. Wanting to help is a good thing! But I always get a suggestion I’ve looked at before and rejected.
It’s not that I’m totally clueless, more that I’ve reached a certain stage I don’t think a lot of people have (and not stage as in *better* mind you).
That’s the short version without me properly trying to communicate a not fully formed feeling of what I want. First installed Linux in ‘96, used to run Gentoo for a while decades ago, stopped using it as MacOS is better in so many ways, but getting frustrated when MacOS now so have started to use Linux as well. Which is my story :)
@yon@sakurajima.moe thanks for detailed explanation! unfortunately ure right, I was hoping "pls let it be reasons that def can't be helped (from my pov) so i wouldn't be the one that offers Yet Another Distro" but gdi it seems like I could indeed offer one - IF you're open to trying. For some context:
- I have always used Windows on my PCs, and macOS on the go. I have used Linux for work but only non-graphically, and I never really was aggressive about "privacy", etc. I did admire open source though.
- After getting frustrated by the little things Windows did though, I took a plunge and tried Linux out on a secondary drive on my PC instead of through virtualisation. I then realised, work-wise, how incredibly fast it is compared to using "Linux" on Windows (through WSL). This wasn't the primary reason, but everything else that helps boosts my productivity (and how much prettier it is also contributes) to making me switch over for good and move my installation to my primary disk.
- My setup is also a little more complex than most people, which gives me a bit more confidence that others with less demanding needs might be in as good or better position than I am. Complex, such as: Dual monitor with different resolutions, 2 4K capture devices, an audio interface + studio mic, wireless/bluetooth devices including trackpad and headphones, a drawing tablet, plenty of USB devices, an NVIDIA GPU, gaming is also on the table, etc.
In the end, I feel like your needs, with help of what I've done to set it up to make things "perfect" (for me), could be met with EndeavourOS. It's a minimal Arch Linux distro, which some might be turned off by but Arch is the most popular distro in recent polls (and what companies like Valve use for SteamOS) for a reason. That reason for me being the best hardware support, and most importantly the AUR - Almost 99% of the time, anything I want/need whether popular or obscure, will always be available on the AUR/Arch repos. It's the only package repo I can say is certainly better than homebrew cos I often find things that weren't on brew but are on AUR, hardly it was the other way round.
The community was great too and their community blogs was what helped the lost old me who knew nothing of Linux, to get things perfect for me. I say was, bcos as soon as I was set, I never really looked back to know if they're still fine now - they were a fresh breath of air though compared to the Manjaro community, etc. EndeavourOS also ships with KDE Plasma by default now (it used to be XFCE) which is what I use/prefer. The only caveat is that it's bleeding edge, which u did mention not to want unfortunately - but I haven't had anything break yet for me tho after ~1-2 yrs daily driving it as my main system for everything incl work and gaming. Especially with backup solutions; Timeshift (system backup) and Vorta (personal files backup) set up.
@yon@sakurajima.moe It's not complete just yet and I'm still adding stuffs to it based on what I've done/documented in the past, but if u wanna check out what I've done to set up my EndeavourOS system, check it out on my personal wiki: https://github.com/irfanhakim-as/linux-wiki/blob/master/distros/EndeavourOS.md
@irfan Yeah the problem with just grabbing the latest of everything all the time is that it breaks, and it requires an awful lot of bandwidth sadly:(
I’d like a happy medium. I think homebrew for MacOS is great for instance. I know they have to for Linux as well, but I fear it lacks in user base.
Oh, and I don’t use Windows at all. In fact I don’t like any Windows GUIisms and am very disappointed in any distro that tries to make Windows users feel at home. Opposite effect on me :)
@yon@sakurajima.moe yes, that's the issue with bleeding edge - it's a sacrifice I make for maximum compatibility and so far, anything else I've used has caused me a lot more headaches. I'm a programmer by trade, but despite that or rather bcos of it, I think in a very "average user" kind of way - if my desktop requires me to do something in a way that I don't see my partner or sister is capable of doing for example, then it's not good enough.
I've been lucky though that in the almost 2 yrs of using it, despite my very complex setup and hardware, I've never had anything break on me esp from software updates - the only "breakage" I've experienced Plasma 6 but only bcos of NVIDIA (Wayland default, fixed by switching back to X11). With Timeshift, it's ridiculously easy too to just restore a previous session, since with my setup thanks to packages easily available from the AUR, Timeshift creates a snapshot not only daily but also each time you're about to start a system update.
For graphical apps I always opt for Flatpaks and they're all available for ~95% of my apps, ones that don't I'll just install from Arch/AUR. I do that bcos I have many systems now of varying distros and using Flatpaks is very convenient to keep updated without any restarts or needing to update the entire system.
Just know though that if you find your "perfect" distro that isn't bleeding edge, I'd like to know too cos ur requirements are incredibly similar to mine haha. Also - even if you're on a distro without the AUR, you can still reap benefits from it using Distrobox. Gaming-centric distros like Bazzite (which is based on Fedora) utilises it to get packages from the AUR under the hood, securely.
edit: oh and also, I was aware that you don't use Windows but rather macOS - I've hated both of them incredibly, and have always wanted a perfect middleground and I'm very happy that I've found it thanks to Plasma's sensible and customisable frontend, and Arch's usefulness underneath that both grant me a productive and pretty setup. I only mentioned that Windows bit as context so that you know that I'm not a person that advocates for Linux "just because" but rather do so despite knowing/having been familiar with OS other than it (i.e. deservingly).
@irfan Each to their own:) I’m more of a “if I feel a need to customize the default isn’t good enough” type of a person.
I’m certainly a very above average user, but I just want to use my computers.
Ironically I’ve never had anything debuggable ran that I wasn’t building myself. I’ve kind of wanted to contribute to open source for a while. But getting something set up so I can build, debug, develop, test, etc has always felt like too much of an effort.
Would be cool if take barrier was lowered.
@yon@sakurajima.moe oh yes, I'd say I'm the same bcos I often don't think from my perspective, but others around me which "thanks" to me - also use Linux only haha. Ironically this is also why I prefer KDE Plasma over Gnome, too many things are just absent/"non-sensible" on Gnome by default and often always requires extensions where on Plasma, they just work out of the box.
Most apps I use also need to meet that requirement of sensible defaults. The less things that deviate, the less likely it is to break and if it does, the easier it is to identify/address. I still do my Macs on the go bcos I've never had much luck with Linux on laptops, but I'm happy that I def don't need to rely on Windows or macOS to do just about anything on my main PC.